Comments on Quivering Daughters: The Bondage of Betrothal

Hi Anonymous, Thanks for your comment. A few poin...

2012-02-13T22:56:37.996-06:00

Hi Anonymous,

Thanks for your comment. A few points in response.

First, in the article I drew the obvious difference between (as you say) "Historically, fathers gave their daughters away in marriage" and (what the Bible does not say) "Thus says the Lord: all fathers for all time must give their daughters in marriage." It's the difference between a historical record and a divine mandate. The few occasions where the Lord speaks directly to marriage, which I discuss, the norm is "Let them marry whom they will." This is reinforced both in Old and New Testaments.

The Bible is not a manual for creating a culture. If we take it that way we will rapidly find ourselves in impossible situations-- compare, for instance, the misguided commenter above who absurdly appealed to Judges 21, where the Benjaminites "biblically" got their wives by committing kidnapping and murder, That was "the way it was done in Scripture." What's the reason we shouldn't we do it? See also the rather humorous piece I linked above about finding a wife biblically. Just because the Bible records something as historical or cultural does not mean God is commanding it as normative for us.

The definitive passage in the OT on marriage-- Genesis 2:24-- makes no mention at all of a father "giving his daughter". Rather, the point is that marriage annuls parental authority: "For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother..." This by itself places the cultures that acted otherwise at variance with God's word on the subject.

Second, your history is inaccurate. Even the examples you give don't add up-- Mordecai didn't exactly give Xerxes permission to put Esther in his harem! I recommend you read the series of posts on The Jewish Way in Love and Marriage (at Under Much Grace) for documentation of the way Hebrew rabbis interpreted those OT passages on marriage. You might be surprised.

Third, 1 Corinthians 7 specifically says, "An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs... But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband." (v.34) As I said above, if the point had been what you say here, the verse should have said, "An unmarried woman is concerned about the affairs of her father." It doesn't.

A more accurate translation of the verse you quote is, "He who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better." That is hardly a good argument for parental authority over betrothal or marriage-- the point is that women should remain single (!) so they can serve God alone.

I appreciate your desire to interpret Scripture in context, but we must be careful to do just that by not taking cultural descriptions as moral mandates. There's an excellent reason that "These verses about freedom versus slavery you quote were written to people in cultures where fathers gave their daughters away in marriage." It's the same reason that Martin Luther King's speeches about civil rights were given to people in a culture where there was racial segregation. Who needs to hear the truth about freedom more than people who are tempted to give it up or take it away?

--Eric

It seems like you are taking some scripture out of...

2012-02-13T21:03:50.576-06:00

It seems like you are taking some scripture out of context. The scriptures you use showing women having a right to choose their own spouses are the cases of:
1. Women whose father (Zelephod) had died.
2. Widows.

In the Old Testament, father's gave away virgin brides in marriage. They recieved a bride price. Almighty God spoke certain laws about this to Moses. Jesus referred to 'marrying and giving in marriage.' Grooms marry. Fathers give their daughters in marriage.

I Corinthians 7 may refer to giving daughters in marriage depending on the translation/interpretation where it says 'he that giveth her in marriage doeth well. He that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.'

These verses about freedom versus slavery you quote were written to people in cultures where fathers gave their daughters away in marriage. Trying to use these verses against fathers giving their daughters away in marriage makes little sense considering this.

Historically, fathers gave their daughters away in marriage. It probably wasn't until the evolution of individualism as societies urbanized that we saw individual women choosing whom to marry on a wide scale without heavy parental input. This evolved over time, and is different from the way we see things done in scripture.

If a woman has married already, and her husband dies, she may marry whoever she wills, but only in the Lord. Sometimes, women in this case have outlived their parents. If a woman's father has died, she may have more freedom. The case you read had them choosing from within their clan, so presumably extended family had some input. Esther's parents were dead, and her foster father Mordecai was responsible for her.

You're welcome, joylfelix! Yes, the &qu...

2011-10-06T11:51:21.069-05:00

You're welcome, joylfelix! Yes, the "betrothal" doctrine involves lots of very deceptive Scriptural sleight-of-hand, especially in treating descriptive passages as prescriptive. Thanks for the comment.

Very good observations about Rebekah and the diffe...

2011-09-29T07:58:29.745-05:00

Very good observations about Rebekah and the different situations in the Bible. People definitely tend to gloss over that it was her choice don't they? Thanks for the observations!

Lori: Thanks for your comment. That's a...

2011-09-19T11:34:34.211-05:00

Lori: Thanks for your comment. That's a situation I wouldn't wish on anybody.

Certainly it can be very difficult to watch someone we care about making what we consider an unwise decision. That's the exact feeling that many false teachers prey on when they're pushing this "betrothal" doctrine-- wouldn't it be better if people were obligated to do what we want them to? Actually, no it wouldn't, because as Hillary very rightly observes, everyone needs to learn how to follow the Holy Spirit's leading on their own, without any other mediator between them and God but Jesus Himself.

That said, wisdom certainly does involve going into any relationship with eyes wide open and knowing how to avoid the warning signs of abuse. I tried to point out in the article that there's a difference between parental control and parental advice. As the saying goes for abuse, "If you see something, say something."

It's important that her parents help foster a supportive, encouraging, non-judgmental relationship with her so that, if she does need a way out of an abusive relationship, she'll have a place where she can continue to hear God on her own. Prayer is an effective approach all around, and I'll be happy to contribute some of my own.

Eric

Hi, Lori! You wrote: But wouldn't wisdom sa...

2011-09-19T10:44:22.519-05:00
Hi, Lori! You wrote: But wouldn't wisdom say that a young person should listen to and and seriously consider his/her believing parents' (or parent's) cautions about a potential mate if the young person has trusted his/her/their advice in the past? (snipped) ....Doesn't a young person have an obligation to heed a parent's heartfelt warnings and admonitions in such a case - for her own good?

To the first question, I would say absolutely yes. I'm sure Eric will reply soon, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I don't believe he is offering (or desires to offer) a black-and-white, one-size-fits-all response to the betrothal movement. What I do believe he's saying (and believe myself) is that those who are professing believers, and especially those who are adults, have the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. This is the opposite of a formulaic approach that doesn't leave room for the life which comes from walking in the Spirit.

Yes, wisdom might say for adult children to seek the counsel and insight from their parents and other trusted friends; honor does too. (Taking into account that the Hebrew word for "honor" means "weight" or "weighty", for an adult child to consider their parents' beliefs, wishes, etc., it is honoring to carefully "weigh" their convictions and seek the Heavenly Father for wisdom. All counsel should be subject to the Holy Spirit.)

What I've seen happen many times is when adult children do prayerfully seek the counsel of their parents and others, sincerely desiring to honor them, and yet come to believe that God calls them to make different choices or they draw alternative conclusion, they are often dismissed as not really listening or choosing rebellion, or following their flesh. I don't know their hearts, and perhaps some are...but this is between them and God.

The second question re: obligation is one that personally I wouldn't agree with. Would you want your child to listen to your concerns out of obligation or love? Obligation is, again, very black and white. A parent who raised their child to seek the Lord in all things will hopefully trust the Lord with their adult child.

It hurts when those we love make mistakes, but sometimes what we view as mistakes are actually our looking at the outward appearance (including myself in this!). Even if mistakes are made, God is able to bring redemption and glory to His name. Praise our Redeemer! :-)

This article has some great thoughts. But wouldn&#...

2011-09-19T02:19:36.021-05:00
This article has some great thoughts. But wouldn't wisdom say that a young person should listen to and and seriously consider his/her believing parents' (or parent's) cautions about a potential mate if the young person has trusted his/her/their advice in the past? I have a cousin whose daughter is engaged to a young man who is abusing her but the daughter rejects all her family's pleadings and cautions regarding the terrible bondage she is about to enter into by marrying him. She met him at a Bible Institute and was swept away. Her mother is not an authoritarian type person and has no wish to lord it over her daughter, or place her under bondage to parental authority. In fact, she is trying to spare her the bondage of an abusive marriage. Doesn't a young person have an obligation to heed a parent's heartfelt warnings and admonitions in such a case - for her own good? I tremble for her if she continues to reject the advise of her family. Please pray for her.

Thank you!
Lori

Von, you're wrong, for the Scriptural r...

2011-07-30T15:03:17.958-05:00
Von, you're wrong, for the Scriptural reasons I've repeatedly shown. Further comments reiterating your unfounded views to an unsympathetic audience are neither necessary nor welcome.

So, first you say you are 'astounded' at s...

2011-07-30T14:57:42.128-05:00
So, first you say you are 'astounded' at something I say and then you wish me to just 'go away'? An interesting debating tactic, surely. And some of your readers (Anon, for example) seem more interested in others.

Assuming I am not responded to, I will sign off with this, then: Scripture is clear, from the beginning to the end (and all the parts in the middle) that the authority to 'take wives for sons' and 'give daughters in marriage' belongs to the parent, or authority, of the young, unmarried man or woman. From Adam to Christ and all the marriages in between, Scripture shows this clearly.

The current Greco Roman notion of pre-covenantal 'romance' is a violation of Scriptural injunction and has had its predictable result in our cultures.

Von, I didn't quote any of those verses...

2011-07-30T14:27:39.938-05:00
Von, I didn't quote any of those verses from the ESV because I agree with you that "betrothed" is a mistranslation on their part. The Greek word is parthenos, which simply means "virgin," or by extension any unmarried woman. If anything, your observation supports my position that "betrothed" is an eisegetical interpretation, not warranted by the text. If you think that's a problem with the ESV, take it up with the ESV translators, not me!

I'm astounded that you appealed to Judges 21, which is specifically presented as a record of sinful men who "did what was was right in their own eyes" (v. 25), not in any way a commandment of the Lord. In that chapter, the Benjaminites go on to massacre an entire village and kidnap innocent women to get wives for their sons. Do you seriously think this is meant to be something for Christians to follow? Out-of-context absurdities like that are exactly why I'm convinced that Scripture doesn't support your view of betrothal!

You've repeatedly made your positions quite clear, even in spite of warnings that you're violating this site's comment policy and disrespecting its readers. I see no reason that any of your interpretations should in any way alter the substance of my article. It's time for you to accept the fact that you simply don't have a receptive audience here. Please move on and leave us in peace.

I'll save you some time: the Lord does not ...

2011-07-30T14:11:22.941-05:00
I'll save you some time: the Lord does not make any such directions.

Oh, now this is seriously funny. The Lord gives these directions all over the place. You ignore them, skip over them, attempt to explain them away... but they are all over Scripture.

Just one, small, partial, off the cuff example. If all the daughters of Israel were free to marry whoever they wished, then why would their fathers vow have mattered?
Jdg 21:7 How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing we have sworn by the LORD that we will not give them of our daughters to wives?

Here we have the med of Israel bemoaning the fact that the Benjaminites could have no wives, because the other fathers had vowed that they would not 'give them of our daughters to wives.'

Oh, seriously. Scripture is clear on this issue, from beginning to end. It is very, very clear.

Anonymous, if you anticipated a response li...

2011-07-30T14:03:40.301-05:00
Anonymous, if you anticipated a response like that, then you should not have used insulting language. "You're an idiot" does not constitute a rebuttal of any argument. In fact, Jesus specifically forbids such verbal abuse, in Matthew 5:22--"Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

I completely agree with you that we should examine Scripture in context. That's why I explained the context of Numbers 27 and 36 in my article and provided reference links to more detailed studies. Your rebuke is rather tellingly misdirected.

For your argument to be valid, you would have to show an equivalent passage of Scripture that says, "Except for these specific cases as mentioned, the Lord says that an earthly father must always have control over his adult children's marriages." I'll save you some time: the Lord does not make any such directions. As I wrote above, the only Scriptures about arranged marriage are historical descriptions of cultural practices, unlike Numbers 27 and 36 which record what the Lord said directly on the subject.

The context of the passage in 1 Cor. 7 in fact shows the opposite. The verse about widows is the only place in the chapter that mentions anyone deciding who any unmarried person should marry. The context, which I outlined in the article, makes it clear that an unmarried Christian woman, widow or otherwise, is responsible directly to God, not to her father: "The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband." (1 Cor. 7:32, KJV.) A married woman is concerned with pleasing her husband; an unmarried woman is concerned with pleasing the Lord. If the betrothal doctrine was true, the Scripture should have said, "The unmarried woman careth for the things of her father." It doesn't. Thus, the context of the verses you mention supports the fact that betrothal is an unbiblical doctrine, read into Scripture without any textual warrant.

I appreciate your desire to see Scripture handled correctly, which I share. But I submit that by trying to argue in favor of this false, perverse, and unbiblical doctrine of betrothal, you are guilty of putting words in God's mouth, "preaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9).

Hilary wrote: For the most part, readers here a...

2011-07-30T12:09:11.697-05:00
Hilary wrote:
For the most part, readers here are already familiar with conservative positions like yours

Actually, not, Hilary. Reading through this site the positions that readers here are familiar with are very, very different than mine.

Indeed I am reminded of Presbyterians who argue for infant baptism using the 'covenant' argument who have, apparently, never heard of reformed baptists.

Some interesting points, Anon... altho I would agr...

2011-07-30T12:06:32.651-05:00
Some interesting points, Anon... altho I would agree with Eric that your original post was not exactly a Christian thesis.

You might also want to note that Eric's preferred version actually uses the word 'Betrothed' (which Eric calls 'Bondage') several times in the same passage:
1 Corinthians 7:25
[ The Unmarried and the Widowed ] Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
1 Corinthians 7:24-26 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 7:28
But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.
1 Corinthians 7:27-29 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 7:34
and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.
1 Corinthians 7:33-35 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 7:36
If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin.
1 Corinthians 7:35-37 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 7:37
But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.
1 Corinthians 7:36-38 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 7 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 7:38
So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better.
Copy courtesy of Bible Gateway
(Interestingly for me, my own preferred version, the KJV, does not use the word 'betrothed' here, and I would disagree with many of the ways it is used... being interpretations not translations. But Eric chose to use this version, he really should explain the various uses of the word; or repudiate them.)

Eric, sadly I anticipated a response like that, an...

2011-07-30T11:49:39.774-05:00
Eric, sadly I anticipated a response like that, and I don’t think you are taking your offense seriously. You just cannot make the Bible say anything you want it to, that’s wrong on many different levels. When you quote scripture, you have to take it in context. That means there is an overall message that is being portrayed that isn’t necessarily stated in just a verse or two (or even half a verse, which you did). You have to look at the big picture; otherwise we can literally make the Bible say anything we want. According to Peter, “As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:14) In case you don’t understand what that scripture is saying, it means that if you misuse scripture (referring to Paul’s writings first, then saying all other scriptures, as well) it will lead to your own demise.

I realize that you are trying to provide a service to the website, but there just is no sound Biblical proof for these arguments that you are constructing. I have, effectively, ripped apart your entire argument from the seams, and I will even give you a couple examples.

You try to show that the Bible “clearly” states that all females should have the choice of whom they marry. Unfortunately (for you), your first example (Numbers 27) is talking about what to do with inheritance of a father that only has daughters. This means that the father died, without his daughters getting married (which is the issue of Numbers 36:6). This goes directly against your argument because they let the daughters choose whom to marry because their father passed away. Otherwise they would not have had the option. They even went to Moses (an authority) to ask what they should do in this extreme situation. So you cannot just twist the scripture to make it work for everyone’s situation when it is a specific instance.

However, you did it twice. Another quote you misused was Corinthians 7:39b. I found it interesting you used only half of the verse, when looking up the other half of it, the reason you did so became clear. The whole verse is as follows:

“The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.” (Corinthians 7:39)

Eric, this is talking about a widow. Read the whole verse! Not your everyday girl that is upset because her father doesn’t want her to date a guy. At this point it seems you are being deceptive. There is a passage from Acts of the Apostles that comes to mind; “Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 20:30) In case you cannot interpret that, it is saying that we should be aware of false teachers that twist words and try to draw us to their way of thinking. That accurately describes what you are doing by posting this to the public.

Those are just two examples of how your argument doesn’t work because you didn’t bother looking at the big picture of the verses. If you think your other “scripture based arguments” work, think again. I would put everything on here, but it would be too long, so do not bother coming back with, “What about this? What about that?” As long as it is from your original argument it has already be torn apart.

I would like to see you take that post off the Internet because you are misleading the flock, and presenting yourself as a false teacher. I know your intentions seem noble, but some of the worst things can happen with the best intentions. Take this as a message from someone trying to get you back on the right path. Stop misleading and be sure you know how to follow correctly before trying to lead again.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Anonymous. Your u...

2011-07-26T22:32:24.802-05:00
I'm sorry you feel that way, Anonymous. Your ungracious words and insults speak volumes. Scripture says, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." (Ephesians 4:29)

You're an idiot. This was poorly written and s...

2011-07-26T19:39:49.458-05:00
You're an idiot. This was poorly written and so many of the verses were taken out of context. You should be ashamed of yourself for twisting the holy scriputre to say what you want it to. That's pretty much all I have to say.

I was almost to be forced into a betrothal even wh...

2011-07-22T23:53:09.104-05:00
I was almost to be forced into a betrothal even while I was engaged to someone else. Neither of us were really financially ready to marry (he didn't have a job and I of course wasn't allowed to work) but we became homeless to do so because marrying a man I didn't love was out of the question!

Rachel, very few things could make my heart...

2011-06-15T17:15:09.733-05:00
Rachel, very few things could make my heart happier than reading that. Thank you so much for letting me know!

Scott, very interesting. I hadn't thought about it quite that way, but I think you're on to something. Certainly the oppressive view of authority and authoritarianism and control is at the root of a lot of religious abuses.

Eric, "They forbid people to marry" I ...

2011-06-12T21:33:17.452-05:00
Eric,

"They forbid people to marry"

I think this applies to those who hold false divorce and remarriage doctrines too. It's amazing the level people will stoop to in their treatment of somebody whose adulterous spouse divorced them before they even became a Christian.

Oh, such power in these words! Such such mighty po...

2011-06-11T15:07:28.588-05:00
Oh, such power in these words! Such such mighty power! I will be passing this along through my Facebook and through my other networks...so much of what you say speaks to the parts of me that were raised in this way, and breaks me down to the point of intense sorrow and relief, all at once.

Bless you!

Von, with respect, please do not use this site to ...

2011-06-05T12:05:56.900-05:00
Von, with respect, please do not use this site to promote your views and your book. For the most part, readers here are already familiar with conservative positions like yours and QD exists for those who have been hurt by them, who question them, and for encouragement. While we don't avoid dissenting comments or ideas, this is not the platform for debate or dismissive replies towards those who have taken time to answer your comments. We do take truth seriously and seek to be godly and balanced in all material presented here...but there will always be something others will disagree with and that's okay. What isn't okay is persistent trolling and unfortunately your comments are coming close to that. You have taken the initiative to address these things on your own site. We all have things we believe God has called us to do and seek to obey Him in this. Please refrain from promoting your counter-arguments here; unfortunately it comes across as disrespectful of those who have not experienced such success in this issue as you have.

It would be difficult for Eric to know of such a c...

2011-06-05T06:58:37.206-05:00
It would be difficult for Eric to know of such a case since he, by definition, rejects that Betrothal can be good.

I, on the other hand, know of betrothals that went well, including a good friend of mine, expecting their first soon.

Vaughn Ohlman
Author: The Covenant of Betrothal

Miss. Pen and Paper: No, I haven't at a...

2011-06-05T00:34:48.932-05:00
Miss. Pen and Paper: No, I haven't at all, and I'm pretty skeptical of the possibility of seeing one. (Perhaps some other readers will chime in with their experiences?)

As I see it, the biggest problems with betrothal are inherent parts of the system--e.g., somebody else having "authority" to determine who you'll spend the rest of your life with. Take that away and you've also taken away "betrothal."

The verse in Proverbs you allude to is actually a point against betrothal: It says "Guard your heart," not "Let somebody else guard your heart for you." (Of course, "heart" in Hebrew covers a whole lot more than romance, so that's slightly flawed either way.)

Granted that "our current system of dating" has lots of potential problems of its own. But to think that this is an argument for betrothal is to commit what Sir Humphrey Appleby* called the Politician's Fallacy: "We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do it."

The best way to go about finding a spouse, as I alluded at the end of the article, is not to follow a given method or technique but to learn to seek and trust God's wisdom and guidance for your life. Nobody else can have faith for you.

Hope that helps!

*(From Yes Prime Minister, if you're ever in the mood for some spectacular British comedy.)

You know I discovered the concept of betrothal a c...

2011-06-04T23:51:13.405-05:00
You know I discovered the concept of betrothal a couple of years ago, and actually like the idea of it, as I do think there are some major flaws with our current system of dating. Have you ever heard any positive accounts of betrothal or were they always involving controlling parents? I like the idea of betrothal as a means of guarding the hearts of singles, but I don't agree with parents forcing their teenage or adult children to marriage a particular person or forbidding them from marrying someone. Have you ever seen a version of betrothal that takes the good and leaves the bad?

Comments on Quivering Daughters: The Bondage of Betrothal

Hi Anonymous, Thanks for your comment. A few poin...

It seems like you are taking some scripture out of...

You're welcome, joylfelix! Yes, the &qu...

Very good observations about Rebekah and the diffe...

Lori: Thanks for your comment. That's a...

Hi, Lori! You wrote: But wouldn't wisdom sa...

This article has some great thoughts. But wouldn&#...

Von, you're wrong, for the Scriptural r...

So, first you say you are 'astounded' at s...

Von, I didn't quote any of those verses...

I'll save you some time: the Lord does not ...

Anonymous, if you anticipated a response li...

Hilary wrote: For the most part, readers here a...

Some interesting points, Anon... altho I would agr...

Eric, sadly I anticipated a response like that, an...

I'm sorry you feel that way, Anonymous. Your u...

You're an idiot. This was poorly written and s...

I was almost to be forced into a betrothal even wh...

Rachel, very few things could make my heart...

Eric, "They forbid people to marry" I ...

Oh, such power in these words! Such such mighty po...

Von, with respect, please do not use this site to ...

It would be difficult for Eric to know of such a c...

Miss. Pen and Paper: No, I haven't at a...

You know I discovered the concept of betrothal a c...